IN THE words of the very minor 1950s TV celebrity the Amazing Criswell, “We’re all interested in the future because that is where we’ll spend the rest of our lives.”
Unlike Criswell, however, Bible prophecy always proves to be true, even if our understanding now is clouded by seeing as though we’re looking at a mirror into a darkened room.
Pastor Kevin Johnson is a longtime student of Bible prophecy. He talks about the importance of studying end times prophecy and his view of where we’re going. He also shares his experiences as a pioneer in the house church movement, a return to the model of the first-century church of the apostles, and why the house church may play an important role as we draw closer to the return of Jesus Christ.
For more information on the house church movement, visit SupernaturalHouseChurch.org.
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The reconciliation of pre, post, and amillenial viewpoints is available in a literally harmonic view.
The point is that an event has a primary time to occur in the sweep of history and prophecy — but there are foreshadows or echoes across the timeline at definite increments.
For instance, Moses strikes the rock twice… which “entrains” not only the Crucifixion, but also the end time tribulation (crucifixion) of the saints.
There is reconciliation if you’ll accept it, that the events of prophecy happen in small and in anticipation of the primary occurrence. So there are multiple “raptures” but the primary is the calling away of all creation to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
Likewise, antichrists and the spirit of antichrist have been in the world since the days of St. John and before, for instance Antiochus. But the primary occurrence of antichrist is in the end time.
Thinks of it as music where harmonics exist of all great messages. The more profound and powerful the more foreshadows and echoes occur. This is consistent with information theory, and moresso with Christ as The Word.
I come to you in ministry in the spirit of reconciliation — but you must “try the spirits” and “search the word as Bereans” amd here’s a good test: Is Christ the only Savior? Or does He save also through His Body, the Church. What sins you forgive they are forgiven. What bonds you bind they are retained even in Heaven. All in the name of Christ Jesus (Yahshua/Y’shua Messiah).
One faith, one hope, one love, even Christ Jesus, Son of God, for His Church.
As for Home Churches, the key problem is private interpretation of doctrine. That’s what we need to examine. If it rest with Christ, through the correction and teaching of the Holy Spirit — then what are our tests? More peace, more faith, more grace, more love — drawing ever closer to Christ. Consistent with the gospel of Christ and the New Testament Church and the greater cloud of witnesses that have passed on.
I’m full to overflowing tonight. My apologies. We are nothing without Christ.
I am “wrankled” a bit at the name, “Supernatural House Church.”
Mainly of course by the word “supernatural.”
I’d never criticize (I hope) without offering a solution. Since “supernatural” connotes paranormal, no doubt it attracts those that have accepted realities more than the mere natural. I’d simply add Christ’s Supernatural House Church or Christ’s Supernatural End Time House Church.
Gotta say though — it’s like a lightning rod for accusations of cultism. If you’re going to be a lightning rod, I hope you can handle the current.
Wow Derek! “Secret Societies have influenced the creation of the nation state of Israel.” Awesome dude! Take the bull by the horns!!
Yes, we have to ask did John Dee and Newton get involved in the seemingly mystic correlation and alignment of the distances of all major capitals and actors in the formation of Israel, relating both distance and time. That truly seems like orchestration only possible through direction of the Almighty. But exactly how adept are the cult/occult manipulators of the events of humankind?
It’s not set yet that 1948 is set by the hand of God or the hand of demon influenced man including the zodiac.
Hah! “Conspiracy Theory vs Conspiracy Fact”
Teacher Kevin Johnson asserts that the Almighty turns curses to blessings (in so many words).
(… gotta say, I enjoyed the show, even if not live …)
KJ: “God will bless those that bless Israel, as an absolute fact, and by implication, curse those that curse Israel” Regardless of Derek Gilbert’s questioning that Israel today is really Israel… Hehe, if the US is in some condition of blessing — I’d be hard pressed to prove it. Abortion, slavery through illegal immigration, obesity as an epidemic, economic collapse, world arms supplier, theft through bailing out the banks and Walls Street… I can go on and on about reaping what’s sowed. The US is headed straight to hell like most all the rich merchants of the earth. No joke. Pastor Johnson — open your eyes — America is going to hell, no get out of jail free card, at all.
Hmmm… Church Without Walls in Tulsa…. as the “network” for the home churches. Derek, great question, “what do you use as a model.” Pastor J. …. the Acts model of house to house is good. I say this admitting my prejudice for http://www.hccentral.com
Really glad(!) you both got to the essence of the house church (Church) “model.” KJ: “Cup of coffee, Bible teaching, Psalms and fellowship.”
Good interview. Pastor KJ is very charismatic in the literal sense.
But isn’t that the way is should be, in small or in large, Christ be praised.
His letters through John to the 7 Churches in Asia (minor) did not disdain.
It’s about the love of being a His child and under correction.
Do another interview please and ask about the weaknesses of the Home Church movement as regards for instance, missions.
Or perhaps another advocate of home churches….
And yes, the virtual online church is also Church. Let’s take fellowship and assembly wherever we can get it: online, at work, or school, in the home, and even in passing….
In any case, good interview!! HalleluJah!
Lets look at how the Creator has “blessed” the USA for supporting Israel.
1. We are now debt to the tune of 12,000,000,000,000 (12 trillion) plus on paper and something like 100,000,000,000,000 (100 trillion) in future obligations.
2. Since the 1950’s we have been a war of on kind or another.
3. We have become a net importer of food. Right now we import 50% of our food. Can’t wait till that one hits the fan.
4. 1.3 million abortions a year.
5. Government has kicked the Creator out o public life and has attempted to supplant Him altogether.
6. More and more laws are passed each year that are nothing more than tyrannical and oppressive.
7. Government now employees more people the the manufacturing industry of the entire USA.
That’s just 6 off the top of my head. I can give a lot more examples but there just isn’t enough physical storage in the whole world to contain them.
Now I have to ask: Is that a blessing or a curse?
Derek,
What’s up with the connection with John Fenn, of The Supernatural House Church, and Peter Wagner?
“In the fall of 2000 Peter Wagner asked John to become the Educational Advisor to the Apostolic Council of Educational Accountability (ACEA), the group of Bible schools around the world affiliated with Peter Wagner and Global Harvest Ministries. He also became a faculty member of the Wagner Leadership Institute (WLI), based out of the World Prayer Center in Colorado Springs, Colorado.”
http://www.supernaturalhousechurch.org/aboutus.html
Darren: good catch. I missed that when I looked at the website prior to the interview.
However, when you read Kevin’s writings and listen to the interview, you won’t see or hear anything like the twisted eschatology of the New Apostolic Reformation. The Joel’s Army crowd skips over the Falling Away, the Great Tribulation, the Antichrist, the Mystery Babylon church, and all that, and goes right to the return of Christ–and they get that wrong, too.
Hi Derek,
Thanks for pointing out that the brand of eschatology I subscribe to and that of the New Apostolic Reformation. By way of an up-date, I have had to distance myself from John Fenn and the Supernatural House Church network due to his (their) adherence to Word/Faith theology not to mention John’s affiliation with the so-called prophetic/Apostolic movements.
Mr. Fenn seems to have a personal visitation from the Lord once or twice a year, not to mention the fact that doctrinally they are way too loose for me. I am in no way affiliated with them any longer.
Hi, Kevin,
We’re glad to hear it! But I must add that it’s been pretty clear all along from your writing and our interview that you do not subscribe to the unbiblical teachings of Mr. Fenn and the prophetic/apostolic movement.
Thanks Derek! Blessings to you and Sharon.
Derek,
It is surprising to see you comment on John Fenn’s theological position when it is evident that you really do not know him or have even taken the time to correspond with him to see what he really believes.
I’ve known John through email and other venues for over 6 years now and have followed him closely.
He is not affiliated with Peter Wagner nor does he subscribe to the eschatology of Wagner et al. I have listened to his teachings in these areas and they are not what you seem to imply.
Do I agree with everything John teaches? Of course not. He and I have gone back and forth a few times over some points of theology.
But, iron sharpens iron. And I can say that John Fenn is pretty balanced from what I have seen and heard.
You might want to contact him directly to see what he believes instead of going off of hearsay.
Gary,
Thanks for taking the time to comment. From John Fenn’s website:
So as of December 16, 2011, Mr. Fenn is still publicly promoting his relationship with C. Peter Wagner. If the relationship is history and Mr. Fenn does not subscribe to Mr. Wagner’s theology, it seems odd that he would choose to feature his work for Wagner in the “About Us” section of his website.
Derek,
If you look at John’s web site, he has the following on his “about” page:
“After starting The Church Without Walls International, John severed ties with Peter Wagner and Global Harvest, as they were moving in different directions.
“It seems that over 37+ years of walking with the Lord and in ministry, the Lord has allowed John and Barb to be associated with various ministries before they started getting off balance, then moving them on, taking the best part of things learned with them.”
I corresponded with John personally about this and he expressed surprise that one would read a resume as if that is what they currently believe rather than as a past association in their life.
Derek,
You also wrote: “If the relationship is history and Mr. Fenn does not subscribe to Mr. Wagner’s theology, it seems odd that he would choose to feature his work for Wagner in the “About Us” section of his website.”
Derek, if you were writing a resume, you would normally account for all time periods in your life–whether they were the best jobs at the time or not. You can’t change history; therefore, John–like others–simply listed his past experience as part of his “resume” because that is simply a part of his work/ministry history.
Again, as a host, you should, in the future, consider the totality of a ministry instead of one blurb in a “resume.” It is important to do due diligence when commenting on an individual’s associations.
If one is concerned about an association they should correspond directly with the brother or sister.
Direct communication with Mr. Fenn would have been proper. I’ll make a point of clarifying the break between Mr. Fenn and Mr. Wagner in the show notes above and in a future podcast.
I don’t think, however, that’s my reading comprehension is at fault here. Mr. Fenn did not note that he’s broken with Mr. Wagner at the CWOWI site, which is what I linked to above. Reading the “about us” section there gives the reader no indication of any kind of split between them.